A short discussion on Seeking and Suffering
Charlie Hayes/ John Wheeler/ Dennis Waite

Charlie Hayes:
now ... am i / are you / happy? free of worries about 'my future'? ... free of guilt about 'my past'?

is it really a done deal? or is there residual / habitual suffering? is there any remaining sense, however tiny or subtle, that what simply is 'should' be different, or better, or corrected or modified in some ... ANY ... way? "Well, if I just had enough money to be sure I can maintain my frugal yet comfortable life style, then I would know peace and feel free." Is that ringing a bell? It is here ... so why does the belief that suffering is inevitable and part of the Oneness and all that neo-Advaita crap not satisfy me and end the residual suffering? I need to look, investigate, find and root out the source of that self-centered thought about "me" and "My Life." There is deep Understanding here. AND still some suffering remains. I am no longer willing to accept that suffering cannot be eliminated ... thanks to Bob, and John Wheeler ...

Sureshwara, appointed Shankaracharya of the South by Adi Shankara, noted, "If you believe suffering to be inevitable you are welcome to keep it!"

I would add "If you or I believe in a "Me" for which that suffering is inevitable, we are welcome to keep it." Hello, "Neo- and Pseudo-Advaita" ... I challenge us to seek and root out the source of any and all suffering, great or small ...

As "Sailor" Bob points out on his website,

If the self-center, ego, or reference point is seen to have no substance or independent nature, it will be understood or known that whatever mental concept or image comes up naturally happens by itself, and instead of any need to discard or get rid of it, it can be a useful happening for the protection, assistance, or defense of the organism--like with an insect, animal, bird, or reptile not thinking about protection can naturally change color or grow patterns in the skin or fur to blend in with the environment around it... a natural camouflage comes about, without any attempt to change the appearance.

Likewise with humans: without belief in a self-center, anything, including mental concepts, change or action can come about naturally to suit whatever situation arises.

However, if the self-center, ego, or reference point is believed to be something substantial with an independent nature of it's own--an existing 'me' or an 'I'--then whatever arises is referred to this 'me' and, instead of being a natural functioning, it occurs as a contrived state, such as fear, anxiety, stress, etc., because that entity, being non-existent, cannot live up to what is imagined. And even when hearing about non-conceptual natural functioning, still believing in a reference point, useless and contrived attempts continue to be made to live up to or recreate some concept of that.

Seek the source of me myself and i ... seek the source of all thought and feeling .... don't do what i did for so long and settle for concepts. "Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger."

I am excited to look further, deeper, back, back to Source, seeing that I am Presence Aware here and now NOT conceptual. Suffering is the silent signal NOT done ... keep going ... stay in the oven, no matter how hot ... stay with the knowing as Bob and John Wheeler remind us, the FACT is you ARE That awareness ... I exist."

Dennis:
I would take issue with your saying we need to ‘look, investigate, root out, seek’ etc, though. Who is going to ‘do’ these things? As you say, there are these residual beliefs but isn’t the most tenacious of these the belief that there is an ‘I’ in the first place?

John:
Looking, investigating, etc. does not necessitate or create an imaginary "I". (That is being too politically correct at the expense of direct experience.) Quite the contrary, such looking rapidly dismantles any residual belief in the "I". That is why Ramana, Nisargadatta, Shankara, etc. had no problem with giving such advice. With the dismantling of the concept of "I" comes the complete resolution of psychological doubts and suffering. If there is no "I", there is no separation and no basis for suffering.

People who claim that the investigation creates the "I" have the cart before the horse. Of course, they back themselves into a corner, because with the "I" not exposed, the self-centered doubts and suffering go on. The only alternative, to remain consistent with themselves, is to assert that the doubts and suffering go on as part of the oneness, even after the "truth" is known. This is totally inconsistent with the teachings and testimony those who have looked deeply into this. As Charlie quotes, those who wish to keep their doubts and suffering are welcome to do so!

Ramana said to investigate the "I" thought. Nisargadatta said to stay with the sense "I am". Were they ignorant fools? I think not! They must have had something right! From the point of view in your e-mail, they must be judged as dualists. A rather dubious position on the face of it ....

Dennis:
I agree entirely with what you say. But you seem to be arguing against something I never said. I didn’t actually suggest that the investigating ‘created’ the I. The point I was making is the idea that ‘I need to investigate’ is one of the main problems for the seeker. We start with this idea. Investigation takes place (or not) and there is then the possibility that knowledge will arise, eradicating the ignorant idea that there was an ‘I’ to investigate in the first place. But the fact remains that there was no I and no choice about whether or not to investigate. If it was known to begin with that this is the case, there would have been no need to investigate. The teachings of the sages act as another causal factor (at the level of phenomenality) pushing us towards the point when the final ignorance is eradicated.

John:
We are basically in agreement. The pointer [to investigate] is addressed to an apparent someone under the sway of the false belief in separation. From that point of view, the investigation is not a problem at all. I would rather say it is the solution. The investigation directly reveals the absence of the presumed individual. Then there are no more questions or problems.

"Anyway, there is no need to hit the badminton birdy back and forth on this one. Words can only go so far with this stuff. As you know, it is direct, non-conceptual realizing of the fact of present awareness and our nature as that. This is utterly off the track of the mind and any verbal formulations whatsoever.

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